If you make a product designed to help people protect their privacy, a shout-out from Edward Snowden is marketing gold. Thatโs what happened recently for the makers of Ghostery, a free Web browser plugin that shows users which companies are tracking their online habits. The tool, which lists third-party firms collecting data in a small pop-up, has quietly amassed 20 million users worldwide โ and now we know the worldโs most famous leaker is among them. During Snowdenโs remote appearance, he recommended three tools for listeners who were worried about their privacy, including Ghostery.
Andy Kahl, senior product strategist for Ghostery, swears he had no idea Snowden was a fan before he mentioned the firm during his remote appearance at the South by Southwest festival, Snowdenโs first public appearance since blowing the whistle on the NSA.
In fact, Kahl says he was kidding before Snowdenโs talk about how they might use the appearance for marketing purposes.
โI was making a joke that if Snowden were to sneeze and that sneeze sounded like Ghostery, we could get some mileage out of that,โ Kahl said. Heโs been on the phone with journalists and sifting through speaking invitations ever since.
Snowdenโs mention of Ghostery was a bit curious, as the product really has nothing to do with government surveillance, but rather corporate data collection for marketing purposes. In fact, at one point during the appearance, Snowden and co-panelist Chris Soghoian raised a distinction that causes a bit of a split among privacy advocates: Which is the bigger problem, government or corporate invasions of privacy? Soghoian and Snowden said they were both far more worried about government intrusions, but Kahl thinks there it isnโt quite an either/or question. We discussed this and many other privacy issues in a recent chat. For a privacy technologist, his views are surprisingly non-paranoid.
Governments can deny people rights, but thatโs rare. Companies can and do track millions of people. Which is worse in your eyes?
I donโt know that thereโs a ton of value saying one is worse than the other. โฆ If you want to argue from a civil liberties standpoint, itโs important for everyone, thatโs more important, and I want to guard those rights for all of you forever. Itโs clearly more tedious by comparison, the uses of data that, say, a data broker has. But that stuff can be more practical and more sensitive to your average person. I donโt think the two are at odds with one another.
Has the Snowden incident helped you make the case for more interest in privacy in general?
Most definitely. We called this โThe Summer of Snowdenโ last year. Every conversation we had has some callback to Snowden. Any time something that creates a mainstream conversation out of this issue that would otherwise be reserved for niche professionals, thatโs great. Iโve got to say Iโve had more to say at cocktail conversations in the past year than any time in my life.
So what is the problem with, say, a pizza shop knowing what my favorite kind of pizza is?
Thatโs not a problem. You are about to tell them what kind of pizza you want when you walk in, so what if they know? If every day you go to a pizza shop and get a pepperoni and sausage pizza, the guy at the place will say, โHey, itโs Bob. He wants pepperoni and sausage.โ The problem is not sharing the data. The problem is how does he come by that information? Thatโs the scenario most people understand. Does a health insurance company also know that data? Iโm perfectly willing to share my information as long as itโs clear who gets it and how itโs used. You donโt have to have a black and white reaction to sharing data.
So how come no one knows all the companies that have their personal data?
Thatโs part of the opaque nature of the marketing business, an unfortunate scenario. Part of what we are trying to do with Ghostery is give you the opportunity to dig into which companies know about you. We are all about transparency.
I installed the plugin and now a popup tells me that at nearly every website, 10 or 20 companies are tracking my clicks. How many companies are tracking me?
We have 1,800 companies in our database.
Itโs a little overwhelming to see the list. What am I supposed to do with that information?
If you start to see the same company over and over again, you can click and try to learn more about them. You can also block them, but we donโt block companies by default. That might cause some websites to not work properly.
Do people who install the product tend to block everything?
We try to lead people to a more nuanced understandingโฆthere is a trade-off. People who use our product in a more involved way start by blocking everything and then they fine-tune those controls.
Your product is free. And it seems that many companies might not like what you do. How do you make money?
We allow users to share (their blocking preferences) with us. Then we sell it back to site owners to help with their relationships with third-party tools. But you opt in to do that, and itโs anonymous.
You must have a lot of interesting data on what things people block.
I donโt have real deep insights because a lot of our data is anonymized โฆ but I do know that about half the people who block sites are doing it selectively, not just blocking everything, and thatโs where Iโd say our message is getting through.
Outside the U.S., where else is your product popular?
About 40% of our users come from Europe. Germany is second to the U.S. We also have a ton of users in Denmark, where people care a lot about privacy issues.
Where does the name Ghostery come from?
Itโs a reference to the idea that there are things happening that you cannot seeโฆ
You sound more open to data sharing than some privacy experts. Why is that?
There is this notion of being very afraid of the future, where our identities are quantified. People often reference the scene in The Minority Report, where Tom Cruise is trying to evade capture, and holographic ads that know his name are blasted over and over. People point to that as scary. But the problem is not that the advertiser knows who he is, the problem is that heโs not being afforded due process.
Wait, our identities are going to be quantified?
Yes. Some folks are fighting a tide and I donโt see success in fighting that. Itโs happening. So letโs start talking about how to do that in responsible ways. So just by signing your name and giving someone your information you havenโt lost control.
You do not sound paranoid. Thatโs strange for someone who works in privacy.
Yes (laughing). Iโve had to turn in my tinfoil hat. Iโm trying to be a realist about the way our world and our culture will evolve. In my mind, I can be an advocate for transparency and a realist about the quantified world. I choose to believe thereโs a middle ground and not just throw my hands up in the air and give up.
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Image: Photodisc
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